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  #21  
Old 02-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Kennfoo Kennfoo is offline
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Originally Posted by jayhan View Post
ken - sorry but i dont share the same sentiment as with you. if you still stick your guns with your work, of course im fine with it, after all it is your work. I am a loud mouth, i know that for certain. and i dont shield and filter what i say - this i know as well. we can always agree to disagree. I dont see WPJA, or WPPI and even WPPM as the same page as you. To me, ya have money to do advert, fullfill some minor requirements, ya can slap their logo on ya website already. No biggie. To market in Malaysia and to go for a somewhat upscale market (so ya can charge more), yes, i do agree such recognition is crucial.

The WORLD'S TOP RATED AND AWARD WINNING WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS, as you put it are those acknowledged by the same organizations I mentioned earlier. And same goes to for your information - these recognition doesnt mean nuts on the other side of the world ie. China. I've had wedding shooter friends who has WPPI, AWPJA and whatever not asking me to help out to branch out to PRC, and this is the blocking scene for them. I think this kinda solidify the limitations of these organizations' reach, no? Awesome marketing platform - yes. World's best? I still cant buy into it.

Everyone have the rights to say what they want. Including us photogs, and not only clients. Bear in mind that I am not personal attacking you, I'm just dissin the mediocre works dished out and being labelled as fine art. So, dont take it personal... but of course you can too if you want.

CM is a good photog. But not the best from HK as far as I know. But lets leave that aside. And checking thru my postings and statements, I dont recall I did mention. attending workshops are for noobs, did I? And, again, I'm sorry but I dont share the same sentiment with you on your take on being humbled and take in all sorts of works and remaining silent. Criticism is a way to improve. I critic people, if they dont like it, we debate for a while then life move on. And of course, people can critic me as well... I always welcome that.
Well, then perhaps we have nothing more to say as it would be like magnets with the same face trying to pull each other together.

But you got to get one thing clear, critisizing and dissing are two different approaches to voice one's opinion. Critisizing Professionally = Constructive Criticism, while Critising Sacarsticly = "Perli orang punya kerja". Say all you want, but deep down in our heart we all agree on this.

I do not take this personally. Trust me. I've been working in the art industry for more than 6 years and we face criticism everyday in our work. If I take them personally, I would have failed myself a long time ago. I am just speaking on behalf of the Fine Artist and Wedding Photographers who shares the same idealogy as mine. I totally agree with you that criticism is one of the most painful way to make one stronger, but, like I mentioned earlier, critisizing and dissing is two different matter.

Same goes to you, If you think speaking out loud without considering the consequences works well for you, then good for you and I wish you luck in your future endeavours. And like you said, we both don't stand on the same ground, so we'll just walk our own paths. Cheers and good discussion this has been! (Speaking in Yoda voice~)
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  #22  
Old 02-10-2011, 02:56 PM
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jayhan jayhan is offline
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May the force be with you.

I think we both can agree we like, no, we love starwars then.
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i dont need to produce great photos to call myself an artist.
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  #23  
Old 02-10-2011, 03:18 PM
knightdemon knightdemon is offline
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Wow...pretty long flame wars here. after reading everything here. i personally feel dat the Fine Art party here has misinterpreted the whole thing here. A case of an example being blown totally out of context. I'm not siding anyone here. Jay Han giving examples and giving a piece of his mind bout Fine Arts and Ken gets defensive. Not wrong for Ken to get defensive cos Ken does have a Fine Art piece of his own. The bigger picture here i feel is Fine Art and marketing and branding of it. What is Fine Art actually? Dark n Moody all the time? Cant it be bright, colorful, happy tones?
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  #24  
Old 02-10-2011, 03:23 PM
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astroboy astroboy is offline
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I oso dunno what's Fine Arts?

In my advertising days, my guru David Ogilvy gave me these pointers:
KISS - keep it simple, stupid
and
"if it sells, it's creative".
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  #25  
Old 02-10-2011, 03:29 PM
knightdemon knightdemon is offline
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I oso dunno what's Fine Arts?

In my advertising days, my guru David Ogilvy gave me these pointers:
KISS - keep it simple, stupid
and
"if it sells, it's creative".
yes, i've been taught in college to keep things simple too. Advertising subjects. LOL
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  #26  
Old 02-12-2011, 11:02 PM
tools4fools tools4fools is offline
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but overcooking something and call it fine cousine?! c'mon...
That hits it spot on in my opinion - but as seen from a photographer point of view.

There's a lot of awfully bad photography out there - and some folks label their awfully bad photography 'fine art'. Other people will even buy it as it is hip or they simply like it.

In a way it is OK that such photography is bad - as the artist is not out there to take a good photograph (good as in photojournalism or commercial photography) but to create a piece of art - which is left to personal taste.
He wants to create art that's all, he don't want to take a good picture. And some people will like his art.

Photographers approach: takes a solid wedding portrait of the couple.
Artists approach: cuts the heads away that the spectator focuses on the body and the soul in it...

Of course it is never as simple black and white as above sample - you can have artists that are photographers too - and photographers that are artists...
Somewhere here then the borders start getting blurred...
Throw in the wanna-be artists and photographers and you will have some real fun.

At the end of the day it is the question really what is 'art'.
To me art is something that cannot be done by just anyone. Art as in artisans.
Everybody can crap in a corner, paint a blue canvas and throw a egg on it or take a blurry badly expose picture.
But not everybody can paint like a Michelangelo.
But that's only my own vision of art and other see it differently - maybe they see it more like visionary art - and at the end we all are right somehow...
******

Last edited by tools4fools; 02-12-2011 at 11:05 PM..
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  #27  
Old 02-14-2011, 11:04 AM
Cottonteil Cottonteil is offline
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The fine art and photojournalistic style stemmed from photographers wanting to break away from the traditional stand anywhere in a row and smile pics like below. Apart from the guns, this is a traditional style.



In fine art wedding photography the photographer expresses his or her vision of how images look like and may control, modify and stage the scene and mood extensively. The fine art style tends to be unspontaneous but creative in nature. Meaning, the image existed in the photographers mind prior to being taken by the camera.



As opposed to photojournalistic style which serves to record and tell a story in the best possible way spontaneously.



The definitions are not subjective at all. They are descriptive of the method used. Only the level quality is subjective and one can argue over quality endlessly at a kopitiam, as mentioned.
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2011, 12:11 PM
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cottonteil :
i am impressed you took time to search for examples for the definitions said. and yes, i do agree with the examples you posted. and yes, i can agree too that if one were to claim the 2nd pic is a piece of fine art. it looks fine, and is technically strong in it. lighting was used, poses and flow... and it seems to be having somewhat a hidden message in it too.

what i am questioning is; when some inferior photos, technically very flawed pieces which are then post processed to oblivion to hide these scars are also called fine art... then does that mean other good photos of such creative nature not fine? Personally, I'm just irriated by the abuse of the word FINE in its marketing nature.

This is a general statement, and I am not pointing it to anyone.
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i dont need to produce great photos to call myself an artist.
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2011, 03:25 PM
Cottonteil Cottonteil is offline
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Originally Posted by jayhan View Post
what i am questioning is; when some inferior photos, technically very flawed pieces which are then post processed to oblivion to hide these scars are also called fine art... then does that mean other good photos of such creative nature not fine? Personally, I'm just irriated by the abuse of the word FINE in its marketing nature.
I think the word 'fine' in fine art does not imply how good the work is. It is merely a descriptive word from the old days to separate it from performing arts like dance or acting or applied arts like fashion or automotive design.

I agree people tend to inflate a lot of their work with new buzzwords, but marketing is marketing. End of the day, there is always a demand for bad or poor taste stuff. Porn photography is barely an art, but the market for it is huge and far larger than wedding photography for example.
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2011, 04:03 PM
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ShaolinTiger ShaolinTiger is offline
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From what I've seen it's a Malaysia/Asia trend, I don't see photographers I follow in US and UK using the term.

And here it means massive post-processing usually with the 'dramatic' style (extreme darkened backgrounds, gaussian blur etc etc).
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